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As President Donald Trump takes office yet again, many Americans are wondering whether they can sustain another four years in this country—and are looking for ways to get out.

But moving abroad is no easy feat. There are visas, bank accounts, housing, and many other logistics to figure out. That’s where people like Jen Barnett come in. A few years ago, Barnett and her husband moved to Mérida, a city in the Mexican state of Yucatán. After taking the leap themselves, they founded the company Expatsi to help people wrap their heads around where and how they could live abroad. Since the election, 50,000 new people have signed up for their newsletter.

One destination that many consider is Portugal. Due to the country’s friendly visa programs, there are about 10,000 Americans living there.

On a recent episode of Slate’s podcast How To!, host Carvell Wallace talked to Barnett about Portugal and other foreign visa options, the implications for taxes and international travel, and how expat-curious listeners can take the first step. This transcript has been condensed and edited for clarity.

Carvell Wallace: Tell us a bit about what your life in the Yucatán is like. 

Jen Barnett: When we first got here, it was 2022, the tail end of the pandemic. One of the big things that stressed us at home was all the drama over masking and social distancing. And we came down here, and 100 percent of people had their masks on. What I saw was that everyone was in it together.

We did come down here without a lick of Spanish, and we take classes. We go to in-person school, and we’re learning. But people are really patient with us while we learn, and we’ve made a lot of friends.

It’s very easy to move to Mexico, and we can still visit Spain, Portugal, Vietnam, Uruguay, and anywhere else we want to go. But we can do it at half the cost of living and without this constant pressure of living in the U.S.

If you’re thinking about moving to another country, you should be thinking not only about which countries you want to move to, but also which countries want you to move there. Which inevitably brings us to the subject of visas. What kinds of visas are available for Americans looking to move abroad?

To get a retirement visa in Portugal—called the D7—you only need about $900 a month in passive income, and you actually can still work on it. So if you were able to work from anywhere at your job, but you were able to show $900 a month in investment returns or things like that, then you could move on the D7.

Alternatively, you could go as a digital nomad. That visa is called the D8, and you need to show about $3,000 a month in income.

Spain also has a digital nomad visa. You do have to be a 1099 worker to get it. You can also be self-employed.

What other countries should people consider?

Another option is the Netherlands. They have a visa there called the DAFT, or Dutch American Friendship Treaty, and it’s a visa that they released just for Americans as a thank you after World War II. It is only for self-employed Americans. But all you have to do is deposit 4,500 euros in a local bank account and be self-employed. You do have to have a lease, which is true, of course, in Portugal, too, before you get your visa.

The nice thing about Spain and the Netherlands is that you can move first for a digital nomad or self-employment visa or a DAFT visa, and then apply from within the country, which you cannot do in Portugal.

I would consider Mexico. One thing I like about Mexico is that as Americans, you can spend six months there without a visa at all. So you can always go there and continue to visit Portugal or Spain or the Netherlands. Or if you’re waiting for a visa to be approved, it’s a great place to go.

But keep in mind that when you’re on your scouting trip, you can travel as much as you want in and around Europe for up to 90 days out of any 180 days. Then you have to leave the Schengen zone for three months. We have a lot of clients who are traveling around as they decide where they want to land. And so they’ll do three months in a Schengen country and then spend three months in Albania, which is not in the Schengen zone. Americans can go to Albania for a year with no visa at all. So that’s another popular option for people who want to leave quickly, especially when they’re on limited funds.

If you moved to Portugal, does the question of EU citizenship come on the table? 

One thing about getting citizenship in the EU is that you can then move anywhere in the EU. There are a lot of Americans who have Irish or Italian or Hungarian heritage. And with those countries in particular, you can get citizenship by going back two or three generations and showing that you had an Irish great-grandmother, and potentially get citizenship. But then people may not want to live in Ireland or Italy, so they take that citizenship, and then they move to the country in the EU that they prefer. You can apply for citizenship after five years of residency in Portugal, and there is a language test.

No matter what category you fall into, you should be thinking about taxes, right?

I am not a tax professional by any means, but it is important to note that you will always file in the U.S. unless you renounce citizenship. So you will file in both countries, but most often you don’t get double taxed. So if Portugal decides that you need to have paid 30 percent on your income, and you paid the U.S. 24 percent, then they might charge you 6 percent.

And in Portugal, you do qualify for public [health] care after three months, which is incredible. The public care there is excellent. You have to have private insurance for those first three months before that time, and most Americans tend to maintain private health insurance because it helps them not have to wait in any lines or things like that. I also think it’s great to have private health insurance because it helps subsidize the public system for locals, which I think is another way to contribute to the community.

An influx of Americans can change the local economy, and not for the better, for locals, particularly if you move to a place where the currency is weaker. It’s kind of a gentrification effect. How do you think about that? 

What we found is that expats lift up the economy everywhere they go, and governments have the ability to release the right kind of visas. So countries that need money, they release spaces that are for digital nomads, retirees, and investors.

But in general, when you look at a retiree or digital nomad, you’re talking about someone who is bringing their whole life savings, spending it in your country, and not taking a job or voting. It’s literally the opposite of colonization. Now, that said, anti-immigrant sentiments, they’re going to be everywhere on some level. For populist politicians, it’s a very popular thing to be anti-immigrant. Sometimes if it’s left-wing populists, it’s against immigrants from wealthier countries, and if it’s right-wing populists, immigrants from poorer countries. But on the ground, face to face, we have found people in every country to be incredibly kind.

What advice would you give to any Americans considering a big move?

The most important thing to me is to give yourself grace. Be patient with yourself. It is a lot of change. You don’t have to do it all at once. You don’t have to learn the whole language overnight. People are kind. They want to get to know you. They’re excited.

You’ll have to go through all of these steps. Sometimes you might go through steps twice. We say you go through ideation, then planning, then exploration, and then you’ll get into paperwork, logistics, and settling in. And if you get to Portugal and you decide it’s not right for you, then that’s OK. You’ll start back at exploration and try another place. But just be as patient and kind with yourself as you can. It’s hard to make these decisions when your blood pressure and your heart rate are through the roof and you feel threatened in a place that’s supposed to be your home. And keep in mind that once you get to this safe, warm, community-oriented place, you are just going to blossom. It’s going to change your life.

To hear Barnett walk a couple through their options for moving abroad, listen to the episode by clicking the player below or subscribing to How To! wherever you get your podcasts.

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